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Our community has been discussing Romans. One of many goals has
been to find the great story of Romans rather than piecing our Romans
to fit into a variety of systematic theologies — the typical approach
But
— I do realize that this means covering difficult material (for all of
us) and/or familiar material (for those who have read Romans
differently) at a dizzying pace.
This is a blog thread for some questions and ongoing conversation.
To get it going, here's a few of the paradigm shifts that I have presented in dialogue.
1. Paul's writing is story-driven and occasion-driven
rather than an effort to construct a standing theology apart from his
context. The ancient world was deeply shaped by stories. Even brief
and slight allusions to story were recognized by ancient readers and
would shape their interaction with the text (N.T. Wright). Romans is
jammed with allusions to the great stories of God as Creator and
Covenant-maker with Israel.
2. Romans does not mark an end of the Law and usher in a time of grace.
Granted the marks of the faith community have changed (from
circumcision and the Jewish dietary code to our participation in the
work of Christ). Romans is about how the Jewish Messiah has fulfilled
the covenant. If anything, the change is that we live in the season of
fulfillment rather than the time of expectation. The Romans story is
about how God has been faithful to creation and covenant, not a new
plan because an old plan did not work. God is faithful. Though
unprecedented, the coming of Christ is wonderful intervention of grace
in a story of redemption that began with Abraham and creation.
3. Salvation is all that and MUCH MORE! —
I reallize our comments these past Sundays can be quite disconcerting.
We've been taught to expect our faith in Christ to result in a removal
from this world and the experience of unity with Christ in heaven.
This was not the ancient cosmology — a distant heaven apart from
earth. Paul's depiction of salvation (and eternal life) is much, much
larger! He anticipates a redemption of all of creation. Our salvation
is not disembodied. Instead, as demonstrated by the resurrected
Christ, we live groaning (as does creation) for resurrected bodies and
the joy of reigning in grace with Christ in a redeemed and recreated
creation. I know this is a mouthfu and can be
disconcerting...overwhelming...even frightening.
There's much more to say. But let's discuss...
Views: 1987
1. Rereading Romans
Written by Dan Rhodes, on 22-01-2008 21:03
Romans is certainly one of, if not the, most read books in the entire bible. This has for obvious reasons made rereading Romans a difficult thing to do. And i might as well add here that new interpretations, while they may be fashionable these days, are not necessarily always better. However, we have many reasons to return to Romans with eyes not satisfied to find the usual Law/Grace binary or justification by faith arguments that plagued Luther, Calvin and many people since. Much of the reason why we can no longer be satisfied with these tropes is that the philosophical and theological presuppositions behind them are no longer in place. This is not to say that we are now free from presuppositions of our own and more in touch with the conceptual world of Paul, and hence, able to read him more perfectly. But it is to say that we have realized some of the faults of these other readings simply by coming to their confused and often problematic ends. For instance a Law/Grace binary reading of Romans perpetuated and fueled an inherent antisemitism within the church that the past century has forced us to confront. It was an antisemitism that provoked a wrong understanding of the way that Jews viewed the Law--and even naively overlooked the fact that all first-century Christians, including Paul, thought of themselves as Jews even after they began to preach that Jesus was the Messiah. As a result we have been forced to revisit how the Jews understood the Law and this has had serious import for how we understand Paul and our own faith. If the Law was never seen in a negative light by the Jews, but instead understood to be life for the people of God, then we may be able to understand a little more of Paul's argument in Romans for the connection between Judaism and the Messiah (remember Paul does not think he is a Christian, this term doesn't exist, he understands himself to be a Jew and his message to be about the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham of old).
Hence, instead of understanding such a strong break between what God was doing with Israel and what God did in Christ, we must consider that Jesus is the instantiation of God making good on his promise to Abraham. And this is God's righteousness, not some cosmic balance sheet we all have hanging in the sky somewhere.
Okay, i've said too much already. Any thoughts? |
2. What is Paul's goal?
Written by Travis Greene, on 24-01-2008 17:39
Why is he writing Romans? The traditional answer, I think, is that he's defining the gospel or "Christianity"...which doesn't make a lot of sense, as he's writing to people who are already followers of Jesus. And yet the tone of the book seems different from the other epistles, which are devoted more to specific problems of their target churches. If Paul isn't saying "Here's this new thing called Christianity that replaces Judaism, and here's how it works", what is he saying? |
3. some questions
Written by Sarah, on 25-01-2008 09:00
I don't ask these to suggest that we have not necessarily addressed them, only to say I am still confused about how to wrap my head around these issues. I echo Travis' question of what's Paul's point and what questions is Paul answering.
Also, is Paul writing to both Jews and Gentiles? I'm confused about which combinations you can be of Jew/Gentile, Roman/Barbarian/Greek, etc. And what is the time frame of Claudius dying and Jews are moving back to Rome - how many years ago did that occur before this letter was written?
As we talk about an amplified view of salvation, is part of the idea that it's like the both/and of the Kingdom - being here and present and part of our daily reality, but also not yet fully brought into being? Is it that we've tended to focus on the "then" part but not understood the "now" part? |
4. The "Occasion"
Written by Tim Conder, on 28-01-2008 19:59
Addressing Travis' question —
It has been long thought in some circles that Romans was a theological compendium that stood above any specific "occasion" for its writing.
I think there are several significant occasions though.
First. Paul seeks to journey to Rome. His preparation of the central city in the empire for his message and the building of this church seems absolutely essential to his mission.
Second. (and this grabs a bit of Sarah's question) Paul is a Jew who is committed to building the church on the foundation of the Jewish Messiah's fulfillment of the covenant and his opening the door to the great promises of this covenant (that all nations would be blessed thru Israel and particularly through the sacrifice of the Christ)
The attempts of potentially Jewish Christians to blunt this message by insistence on a misreading of the Law (this is the path of life rather than — as he explains in the dense text of this letter — that the law is indeed good but its purpose is reveal sin, even to make sin more sinful so that sin can be obliterated in the work of Jesus) is a great threat to the mission. Paul's purpose is stated in 1:16f, that the gospel of salvation is brought to Jew and Gentile, a all nations church.
Hence the binaries of Adam/Messiah, two conditions of humanity, and Law/Messiah life drive much of his writing.
I don't we can underestimate the impact of his vision of a covenant community of all nations on the passion of writing.
Incidentally, this will become all the more urgent with the imminent destruction of the temple and sacking of Jerusalem. |
5. Adding to What Tim Said
Written by Dan Rhodes, on 29-01-2008 18:30
In reply to Travis and some of Sarah's questions, I'll take a chance at adding to what Tim has said, treading fearfully and in trembling. It seems that one thing that also prompts the occasion of Paul's writing a letter to the church at Rome is that there seems to be some Jewish/Gentile strife taking place in the congregation. Looking at Paul's letter to the Galatians, we can tell that this is a central issue for Paul--one that he continues to wrestle with in the early life of the Church. So in a partial answer to Travis' question: the purpose of writing seems to be, at least in part, to answer the question of how both Jews and Gentiles can be part of this community together. Both groups are more than likely present, or at least they will be shortly. (Remember Paul has never been to Rome, so he's not exactly sure what the community looks like. He's probably writing based on reports that he has heard in order to try to put these concerns and conflicts to rest before they begin). It helps us to understand then that Paul is not writing universal statements in his letter, but making an argument to a specific people wherein he often employs sarcasm, hyperbole and irony to make his points. These really become hard to understand when we try to read each verse as a divine command. This is not to say that we don't read it as scripture, but it is to say that we try to read it with more of an eye toward what Paul meant to communicate to those who would have heard it read. I think this will be very important with regard to chs9-11 which we will be discussing this week. I'd love to hear comments and thoughts after you take a shot at reading it in this way. |
6. breaking the covenant?
Written by Jesse Blocher, on 02-02-2008 16:58
Tim -
You said something in one of your talks (I think...I'm sorry if it's not true) about how the Jews weren't able to keep old covenant, which is why Jesus came. Either way, I like this point, so I'm going to make it.
My understanding was that the Abrahamic covenant was one in which God made all the promises and Israel was simply a recipient. In Genesis, there is the discussion about the torch floating between the animals cut in half, which traditionally at that time, was the role taken by a conquered people who would pledge allegiance to the stronger party that conquered them. Yet God chose to put Himself in that position.
I think this is really important because God never had a plan B. From the time of Abraham, the plan was create the nation of Israel from Abraham, and through that nation would come the Savior, Jesus, who would come to reconcile us to Him. Which also explains a lot why Jews who believed in Jesus and his message of the Kingdom of Heaven didn't feel the need for a new label like "Christians" or anything, because it was simply the continuation of the role that Israel played in the redemption of humanity. |
7. Identity in Christ: the key
Written by Jesse Blocher, on 02-02-2008 17:12
My other thought on Romans (posting separately since I see it as a different topic) has to do with our Identity in Christ.
As has been mentioned briefly, Paul talks quite a bit about Adam vs. Christ, or perhaps more specifically, our Adam-nature vs. our Christ-nature. And my opinion is that this understanding is foundational for my life as a Christian.
We are all born with an Adam-nature, which we all know from about 10 seconds of introspection, is sinful and most times leads us in the wrong direction. But this is to be expected, because as Christ said in John, "you will know a tree by it's fruit" and thus the bad tree produces bad fruit. What we need as humans, is a nature-transplant; a removal of Adam, a complete torching of that old self, and a "rebirth" with our new, Christ-nature. Thus, we are "good tress" who produce "good" fruit. This is why Paul spends so much time (here and in other letters) saying things like "Don't you know who you are? How can you keep doing things like this, you who have had Christ birthed within you?"
And to me this is vital for the following reason: many Christians (myself in this category) grew up believing that we are worthless pieces of garbage, but the Holy Spirit sort of gives us good advice, Jesus has our back when we mess up, but God the Father is mostly disappointed in us. And that is completely false.
It is true that our old Adam-nature has nothing good in it, and Paul rattles off the old testament proof of that, but you can see the transition he makes between Chapter 7 and 8, where he is wrestling with his old Adam-nature in chapter 7, but bursts into the glorious truth about how God sees us in Chapter 8.
The hardest part of all of this is the intermediate time. I have a friend who used to say that we live in a time between "already" and "not yet." We are *already* filled with Christ's nature if we have chosen to follow him, but we are "not yet" fully complete in Him, and that tension arises each day.
I guess for me it is important to remember that at my core, with my Christ-nature, my heart is good and my desires are good. And the things I do that hurt others (or myself) are not really me, not the true me. The more I remember who I am, the more I am able become who Christ wants me to be in every situation, not because I try really hard, but because that is what naturally comes out of me. |
8. Written by Tim Conder, on 05-02-2008 13:06
Jesse, thanks for weighing. This week we'll discuss the implications of God not having/not needing a Plan B. I believe that a common reaction to God's redemption of creation is that it is an accident which diminishes our worship. A God who accomplishes very faithfully a redemptive project (despite all nature of human ignorance or incapability) is a God truly worthy of worship. The heart of worship seems to be an acknowledgement of our own limitations and mortality (as compared to God's infinite sufficiency) while also maintaining the we a "new creation" in Christ.
Paul's ethical paradigm rests in this "new creation" mentality. Ethics are not obligation or burden. Instead they are the free acts of life — the freedom we have to live in the "Messiah life." For Paul, why would anyone choose to act as if they remained in slavery.
His thoughts on transformation are huge going way past individual security or even "personal salvation" (meaning that sole agenda is getting me right with God) to a global transformation and redemption of creation. This is indeed good news. For Paul, the coming of the Messiah changes everything. Nothing will be as it once was. Again, good news. |
9. eternal life
Written by jesse deconto, on 12-02-2008 13:37
I revisted John 17 as part of a Lenten reading series (thanks, Kellie) and came across verse 3, which seemed crucial to understanding Jesus' view of salvation. He defines eternal life like this: "that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou has sent." Nothing about avoiding hell or going to heaven. Simply knowing God. I know that I'm cavorting with universalist heresy here, but sometimes I wonder if "eternal life" is purely about knowing God in this life and that every human being who ever lived will experience the perfection of a new heaven and new earth in the end. Our eternal life is just the firstfruits of that bountiful future made possible by God's perfect Love and perfect Grace. |
10. Written by Tim Conder, on 12-02-2008 16:06
Jesse,
Preach on ... "universalist-pantheistic—heretic boy" :)
Oops, the rules say "personal verbal attacks will be deleted."
Actually, you make a fantastic point. Eternal life is the theme of this Sunday's text (John 3). Interestingly, this phrase is used 42 times in the Bible, 22 of those times by John. I want to flesh out this term and our appropriation of it with some detail this week. But needless to say, you are on the path I am on concerning the "life of the ages" (literal translation). We've so missed the immediate implications (though literally spewed all over the text of Romans) about the Messiah life, the life to come pushed forward into the present by the work of the Messiah. Perhaps our fixation with eternal escape is driven by the fact that what God calls life, we reject as burden (hence prompting Paul's writing in Romans 6) and the simple reality that we cannot see the signs of redemption around us.
Heretic? I don't think so. I think you are presenting a wonderful trajectory of hope and community to those who follow Christ and those who will eventually acknowledge his Lordship. |
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